Author Topic: Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word  (Read 1120 times)

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Avi

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Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word
« on: October 20, 2011, 06:10:57 PM »
Do we owe honesty to others when we’re online? What if, for example, I always wanted to be a champion figure skater? May I misrepresent myself to others as such – after all, they’ll never know, unless I make some gaffe related to standard figure-skating knowledge? If I do make such a gaffe, are others obligated to keep quiet about it? Should we say, “Well, it’s the internet. Who cares if people lie? Really, what did we expect?” Or, should we say, "Hey! There are places like Second Life, if you need to live out your figure-skating fantasy. We expect you to post honestly."

Billy Joel - Honesty


There was a person who wrote a blog on her attempts to deal with some kind of cancer. She even shaved her head to get the appropriate look, and posted pictures of herself in a babushka. The things she wrote about were very moving, and many people suffering from cancer flocked to her site for mutual support. This blogger wrote about her experiences, said her readers, in a tremendously helpful way. Her readers begged her to set up a Paypal link so they could donate money for her chemo (I think she nobly refused). An old high school acquaintance ran into this blogger in a coffee shop, and later, coincidentally ran across her blog. After some investigation, she outed the blogger for complete fakery, saying that she was a liar in high school as well. The outrage was palpable. Initially, many of her readers stuck by her, refusing to believe that she had lied, until the blogger issued an apology, stating that she never had friends in her life until she, in essence, lied to get them. She admitted that the strategy had some drawbacks, but she felt that (paraphrasing) "for a person like me, it was the only way." Was outing her the right thing to do? What about others driven by loneliness or mental illness of some sort, like time-travelers or such? ;D


Eddie Coyle

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Re: Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2011, 07:12:17 PM »
 
     I can see where honesty could be an issue on the Interwebs, where some troubled souls may resort to being a chimerical fabulist in order to make themselves feel "worthy".

    Wouldn't happen here because I'm ultra-successful, astoundingly rich, have a tremendous business acumen, stunningly handsome with a harem of beautiful women at my command.

    And I played right field and batted third for the New York Yankees...in 2086
     

Avi

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Re: Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2011, 02:51:19 AM »
  And I played right field and batted third for the New York Yankees...in 2086
   

Oh yeah, I remember that.

stevesh

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Re: Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2011, 05:28:18 AM »

And I played right field and batted third for the New York Yankees...in 2086
   

Cool. Did you listen to talk show host Dexter Monterey during your Yankee career ?

Eddie Coyle

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Re: Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2011, 09:56:10 AM »
Cool. Did you listen to talk show host Dexter Monterey during your Yankee career ?
    There are many Dexter Montereys in the year 2219. They're dung beetles, right?

      A radio host had tha name as well...but he perished in the Great St Louis Tsunami of 2031.

Re: Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2011, 10:03:19 AM »
Quote
And I played right field and batted third for the New York Yankees...in 2086

Ya, thanks again for luxury box seats that night. The wife and I really enjoyed that game and they beat the New Detroit Habberdashers for the pennant!

Michael Vandeven

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Re: Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2011, 02:00:41 PM »
    There are many Dexter Montereys in the year 2219. They're dung beetles, right?

      A radio host had tha name as well...but he perished in the Great St Louis Tsunami of 2031.


if only you knew how frequently your posts crack me up.

Eddie Coyle

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Re: Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2011, 03:07:35 PM »

if only you knew how frequently your posts crack me up.

     Thanks...it's what I'm here for. But if not for the silliness of others I'd be up shit's creek.
  BTW, your profile pic is hilarious...that dude looks like 83% of Toby Keith's audience.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 03:12:50 PM by Eddie Coyle »

Agent : Orange

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Re: Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2011, 12:51:35 AM »
Very interesting questions, Avi.

On one hand, if you're a big enough douche to fake cancer, you're asking for it. You deserve to be dragged through the streets and made an example of. On the other hand, some good may actually have come from it if the blog helped actual cancer patients network and support one another even in the face of disappointment at the blogger's outing.

At least pretending to be a time traveller only provides entertainment and many belly-laughs. We need more of THAT kind of dishonesty.

Avi

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Re: Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2011, 02:52:59 AM »
Well, I wondered if I had been a bit mean-spirited to our time traveler. I was a bit harsh, I think. But then, I got to thinking about honesty on the net in general. Should we employ suspension of disbelief to communication here (or elsewhere online)?

Agent : Orange

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Re: Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2011, 03:37:15 AM »
Well, I wondered if I had been a bit mean-spirited to our time traveler. I was a bit harsh, I think. But then, I got to thinking about honesty on the net in general. Should we employ suspension of disbelief to communication here (or elsewhere online)?

Nah, I don't think you were harsh to our resident time-traveler at all.
There's nothing wrong with calling bullshit when you hear it.

Treading Water

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Re: Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2011, 08:47:37 AM »
Nah, I don't think you were harsh to our resident time-traveler at all.
There's nothing wrong with calling bullshit when you hear it.

Agreed.  If you're trying to "punk" people you can't whine when it doesn't work.  I detected no harshness at all, Avi.  I thought it was all in fun.  Oh, well......... ;)

Eddie Coyle

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Re: Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2011, 02:39:09 PM »
Well, I wondered if I had been a bit mean-spirited to our time traveler. I was a bit harsh, I think. But then, I got to thinking about honesty on the net in general. Should we employ suspension of disbelief to communication here (or elsewhere online)?

    Shouldn't he have known about this criticism? I mean he's been here before, so it should not have surprised him.

Michael Vandeven

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Re: Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2011, 11:24:57 PM »
...that dude looks like 83% of Toby Keith's audience.
again... well played, sir.

Eddie Coyle

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Re: Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2011, 12:12:16 AM »
again... well played, sir.
   Thank you...it's picking on an easy target, but that will never stop me.

Avi

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Re: Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2011, 02:10:36 AM »
again... well played, sir.

OK, why don't you boys just get a room?

Here I am trying to deal with my angst over running someone off the forum, and what do I get? A mutual admiration society.

P.S. I rather thought your avatar looked like one of the meth heads on Breaking Bad, after his head was squashed by an ATM machine. I had to look up Toby Keith on Wikipedia, and I do not feel enlarged by the experience.

Eddie Coyle

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Re: Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2011, 02:18:10 AM »
I had to look up Toby Keith on Wikipedia, and I do not feel enlarged by the experience.
    You're in Tejas and you don't know who Toby Keith is?
     I envy you.

Avi

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Re: Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2011, 03:00:14 AM »
    You're in Tejas and you don't know who Toby Keith is?
     I envy you.

Ha! I am overwhelmed with trying to learn Spanish. There is an entire repertoire of stunningly gorgeous musica de Tejas. Ay!

la hija del mariachi - Por un Amor

11angeleyes11

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Re: Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2011, 06:37:13 AM »
    You're in Tejas and you don't know who Toby Keith is?
     I envy you.
A boot in the ass will do just fine, that is the American way.


Agent : Orange

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Re: Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2011, 06:50:31 AM »
Here I am trying to deal with my angst over running someone off the forum, and what do I get? A mutual admiration society.

Is our Time Traveler actually gone? I haven't seen any posts from him lately but I expected him to at least make a scene when he took his ball and went home.

Off to the next forum I suppose.

Avi

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Re: Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2011, 05:59:18 PM »
Is our Time Traveler actually gone? I haven't seen any posts from him lately but I expected him to at least make a scene when he took his ball and went home.

Off to the next forum I suppose.

Yes, it seems the reception here was not quite what he was hoping; he even had to resort to sock-puppetry. It seems that someone recognized our time traveler from another forum, so I'll blame him for Ren's (?) hasty departure. It wudn't me.

Actually, I am still interested in the questions I originally posed, namely, are we obligated to be honest about ourselves on the net? Do we gain anything from such an obligation or are we better off making up whatever we can get away with?


WOTR

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Re: Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2011, 01:44:48 AM »
I seem to have missed a fellow time traveller?  If you can tell me when he appeared (and his name) I would be happy to use the search button to take me back a few days to catch up on the present.  Pitty my form of time travel is unidirectional...

Anyhow, I think it really depends on the forum, the lie and the results.  According to research we all lie many times each day in our face to face interactions (even with those we love.)  It would be unrealistic to believe that people will not take advantage of the internet to stretch those fibs just a little.  I'm not saying that it is right- only that it will happen. 

I realize that you are asking about outright lies (faking cancer etc) but I am going off on a little detour...  I want to point out that we all "lie" by our interactions on the 'net.  The fact is that I really am not empathetic (Aspergers and all...) but none of you know that (unless I disclose it willingly.)  I usually know the "right" answer to appear to have empathy and will often post it.  In my real life, I will often "lie" to appear to empathize and attempt to say the "right" words... have the "proper" reaction.  The thing is that I have the time to consider my response online and I don't need to worry about being convincing (facial muscles and voice) where in my life I need to worry about those things.  In essence, I am (hopefully) successfully concealing who I am and some of my flaws when I post.  I assume that many people use google to look up information or use dictionary.com prior to posting to allow them to appear smarter than they are.  It is a form of a lie. 

The other problem is that many of us do not even really know ourselves.  I can lie to myself on the internet much easier than in real life and not even realize that I am doing so.  In my real life, if I were to somehow believe that I were the worlds top swimmer, the people around me would tell me that I might be good but that I am not world class.  (They would provide a reality check.)  On this board, if I were to honestly believe my own delusion that I am a world class swimmer who has just chose not to compete, nobody has first hand knowledge to dispute my skills; the reality check is missing.

That sort of hit the unintentional lies that we all tell... how about the big ones?  Let's continue with the figure skater.  On one hand, if you are on this forum and claim to be a world class figure skater, it really does not matter.  If you are really a man and you want to post as a woman because you are curious how the "other half" is treated it also really does not matter.  However, if I complain about my relationship and you start your with "as a woman, I would suggest____" or even post a reply with your gender visible on a profile it jumps from harmless to a lie that does matter.  In a similar manner, if you are on a figure skating board and dispensing advice on how to complete a triple axle, double back flip transitioning into a pirouette, it might matter if you are really just a fan who has watched a few competitions.

Finally, a consideration would be the forum and the expectations of the other posters.  I believe this to be a small "community" of sorts.  It is obvious that many posters wish for it to remain BS free.  A time traveler was likely welcomed by nobody.  A man posing as a woman or a fake champion figure skater would be equally unwelcome due to the nature of other posters and the relatively small size of the board.  On a large board with 10 000 members I think it is a little more expected and a little more tolerated because it is harder to self-police.  On a small board such as this it is easy to beat the crap out of a fake poster (or somebody with values that nobody agrees with) until they leave.

I could be wrong, but I think that many of the posters on this board have adopted it a type of community on the internet.  That means that many people feel that they have some stake in it and wish to keep lies and BS out.

I'm about done rambling.  In short, I believe that you needed to narrow down the scope or your question if you were mainly concerned about the consequences your actions had by helping to drive a poster from this board.   The fact is that nobody is upset (that I have seen.)  If people were questioning your actions and stated they wished a liar were still here you might have cause to question your part in the interaction.  Instead, other members seem to have spoken clearly that they do not wish for this corner of the internet to turn into BS central...


WOTR

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Re: Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2011, 01:51:39 AM »
Damn it all... this brings up a personal question.  Suppose that I am correct that it is a harmful lie to be a man posting as a woman dispensing relationship advice.  I have studied you Fu@#ing "normal" people and your interactions.  However, I do have Aspergers. 

Is it unfair... dishonest for me to weigh in on human interactions (say dispensing relationship advice) without full disclosure?  In a lot of cases, I have been told by friends that it is "good" advice or that I provide some insight that others have not... however, there is some dishonesty if I don't tell people that it is more observation than experience or "feelings."

I believe that I may skip coast this evening to over-analyze this problem and ponder this question far more than it deserves.

Avi

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Re: Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2011, 04:47:49 AM »
Toward the end of the 'John Titor, anyone?' thread, there appeared a poster calling himself "John Thomas," with his sock puppet, "Jason Cox." Agent Orange did the heavy lifting from the scientific standpoint, while I chimed in as second fiddle. I thought I might have ragged on the guy a little too harshly. Though it seemed all in fun to me at the time, I was later troubled because we can never know, really, to whom we're speaking on the Net (I'm a cat, posting as a man, after all). I wondered if he might be very young or mentally ill, judging by some of responses. His sense of humor was limited, and he wrote about nothing but his Titor obsession. Read it and judge for yourself.

Of course, the wheels of social interaction are greased by what are termed, "little white lies." If someone asks me, "Does this make me look fat?" I'm not going to say, "Yeah, buddy, like a beached whale. Beluga!" I would probably say, "No, but I don't like the color on you," or some such thing. There is also value to pretending in the "Fake it till you make it," sense. Does this constitute dishonesty? Technically, yes, but the value to me of not hurting the feelings of the people I care about is of greater value to me than honesty for honesty's sake - in the small things. Obviously, there is a time to speak up, especially when someone could be hurt, but again, it is hard to draw a distinction, sometimes, between sharing prurient gossip and telling a person something they need to know. I don't have the answer. Maybe I was just looking to justify my behavior, rationalizing that I was upholding the great value of Honesty. Truthfully, I think I just bashed the kid around because I could, and I'm not proud of it.

WOTR

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Re: Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2011, 05:05:07 AM »
I read it and really don't see the problem.  I doubt that he was really young and don't buy that he was mentally ill.  I think it was somebody coming here to play their little prank and have their fun; somebody who decided to arrive her and have their little laugh.  Great if existing posters wanted to play along, but it is not required to play along with any little game that a poster decided to play.

I really did not see any "bashing him about."  You are not required to play along with his game and are free to call people on BS.  I did not see anybody being mean spirited in that thread.

On a side note, I am happy to report that I have decided that my posting "feelings" or advice is not inherently dishonest.  I have decided that while I may have different experiences in life and see things from a different perspective that it does not invalidate my experiences nor make my thoughts or advice worth any less than another poster.  You don't really want to know how long I spent answering the question to my own satisfaction...

Agent : Orange

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Re: Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2011, 06:32:39 AM »
Truthfully, I think I just bashed the kid around because I could, and I'm not proud of it.

You think too low of yourself. You didn't do any bashing. Don't worry about it!

I admit I was an asshole for most of it in comparison to you, and the "kid" (read: 45 year old guy in parent's basement from THE FUTURE) had it coming. At first I was interested in having a conversation with the guy to see what he was all about, mind you not without deserved snark. Once the sock puppet show started, I see little reason to have any mercy at all.

So let me ask another hypothetical question: How much trolling do you have to take online before you call someone on it? What is the etiquette behind calling bullshit on the net?

BobGrau

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Re: Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2011, 07:15:00 AM »
Imagine a world where time travel will one day be possible - would we then start seeing 'timetrolls' showing up all over the place, leaving shoeprints in coal measures or... hmm... leaving a face on mars etc?

Avi

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Re: Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2011, 07:53:12 AM »
Imagine a world where time travel will one day be possible - would we then start seeing 'timetrolls' showing up all over the place, leaving shoeprints in coal measures or... hmm... leaving a face on mars etc?

Zing! Bob Grau scores!

Avi

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Re: Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2011, 08:28:57 AM »
You think too low of yourself. You didn't do any bashing. Don't worry about it!

I admit I was an asshole for most of it in comparison to you, and the "kid" (read: 45 year old guy in parent's basement from THE FUTURE) had it coming. At first I was interested in having a conversation with the guy to see what he was all about, mind you not without deserved snark. Once the sock puppet show started, I see little reason to have any mercy at all.

So let me ask another hypothetical question: How much trolling do you have to take online before you call someone on it? What is the etiquette behind calling bullshit on the net?

I'm glad I didn't offend others as much as I offended myself. I worry about it because, having never posted much on the net before, I came to realize that my sense of humor doesn't carry over very well and can be (and has been) interpreted as mean-spirited. Worse, I once offended someone whom I respect, who brushed it off and told me to 'fuhgeddaboutit,' but I have to try to remain conscious of the impact of what I say - something I'm not very good at doing - for my own peace of mind.

I remain undecided about calling BS. I described the situation with the woman who faked cancer to gain friends. It seems extreme, but I don't know. A lot of people are lonely and friendless. This woman wrote about her life-long search for love and friendship as she was, and also about her lack of success. She said that she knew what she did was wrong, but that she was tempted to do it again because it worked, when nothing else ever had. I wish her friend would have taken it up with her personally, rather than humiliating her publicly. I sometimes worry that I might lay the hammer down on some lonely person, whose only social outlet is to post about time travel on the internet. Do I think that's the case with JT? No, but I don't know that for certain.

Yes, I'm a strange guy.


BobGrau

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Re: Honesty - It's such a Lonely Word
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2011, 09:43:22 AM »
the internet, or internet culture, is still very new in some ways - the 'rules of etiquette' are still being hammered out and will never completely be finalised. Incidents like the one we're discussing here are all part of that 'character development' process.
(tangent - people who go through the weboflies-exposureasafraud-resolution scenario are also 'developing', as are the people who call bs. I'm really too lazy to talk about this properly)

I'll dip my own toe into the murky pool of potentially inappropriate humour by suggesting, Avi, that you're really living up to the stereotype of the guilt-ridden jew! Now to me that is just a throwaway remark but I may have misjudged your sense of humour/cultural context and end up offending you?
How can I find out? By saying the damn joke and finding out.