Topic: Racism - Remnant of the Past or Alive Today?

[onan]

The fact that we even have a discussion about "whether there is racism or not" should tell you a lot right there.  If it's so subtle that we can't even see it, or barely notice it, then it's not enough of a problem to worry about anymore. 

You wanna see civil rights abuses look at China or Saudi Arabia or Iran. 
People have it really good here, and the playing field is level already.
We have a black president, if that means anything to you.

And I think the reason for the discussion is perhaps because of denial.  My wife and I had just recently moved to NC and she was working in Downtown Raleigh. While waiting for her to come out of her work I saw a driver in a Cadillac almost run over a woman in the cross walk. The walking woman struck the Cadillac with her purse. The Cadillac stopped and a woman got out and her words still ring in my head. "YOU STUPID GORILLA YOU SHOULD STILL BE ON A PLANTATION." But I am sure she meant it in a kind way.

[The Philosopher]

And I think the reason for the discussion is perhaps because of denial.  My wife and I had just recently moved to NC and she was working in Downtown Raleigh. While waiting for her to come out of her work I saw a driver in a Cadillac almost run over a woman in the cross walk. The walking woman struck the Cadillac with her purse. The Cadillac stopped and a woman got out and her words still ring in my head. "YOU STUPID GORILLA YOU SHOULD STILL BE ON A PLANTATION." But I am sure she meant it in a kind way.

 
This, of course is ghastly.  However, we cannot superimpose one isolated incident on a culture.  How many people, placed in exactly the same situation you describe, would say the same or similar horrible words?  I would conjecture only a small minority.

[The General]

And I think the reason for the discussion is perhaps because of denial.  My wife and I had just recently moved to NC and she was working in Downtown Raleigh. While waiting for her to come out of her work I saw a driver in a Cadillac almost run over a woman in the cross walk. The walking woman struck the Cadillac with her purse. The Cadillac stopped and a woman got out and her words still ring in my head. "YOU STUPID GORILLA YOU SHOULD STILL BE ON A PLANTATION." But I am sure she meant it in a kind way.

That sucks, but it's anecdotal.  A black president is not.

[onan]

I would conjecture only a small minority.

From your mouth to god's ears.
 
I wish I could say I only have a few anecdotes, but I can not. I could no doubt fill several pages with similar stories although not as vivid.

[EvB]

We have a black president, if that means anything to you.

Well, yes we do - and it does.  That's a game changer no matter how this administration works out.  (and for those of you who do not care for Obama - just let me say:

• I'm disappointed myself
• let's be grateful it wasn't Jessie Jackson  )

But consider these things, some of which I believe had significant influence on Obama's electability - they have to do with his sociological demographic, as opposed to the color of his skin - and they are decidedly WHITE:

• He's a Harvard grad - an historical bastion of white male privilege if there ever was one. 
• He was raised by a white woman, his African father was largely absent form the scene.
• the subtleties of his speech, demeanor, and general social (and I'm speaking casual social here - not "social movement" social) presence is more white than African American. His wife is another story.
• He is not a descendant of American slaves.

are these things a big deal, particularly for our very first president who is obviously of color?  (there have been others, BTW - with Africans on their family tree.  It just didn't show and wasn't mentioned.) No, they're just interesting.

I will feel we have learned something more when we have a president of African descent - male or female -  (similar things could be said for any "nonwhite" - but Obama is the example here) who:

• Attended Morehouse College or - preferably - a coed equivalent.  (IE: high quality competitive college with a history of serving, primarily, nonwhites)
• Displays, in his social interactions, the cultural qualities of his or her heritage.
• Is descended from US or Caribbean slaves.
• Had at least one parental figure from his or her cultural heritage present in the home during developmental years.

Am I nitpicking?  Yes, absolutely.  But sometimes those nits deserve some attention.

[anagrammy]

The fact that we even have a discussion about "whether there is racism or not" should tell you a lot right there.  If it's so subtle that we can't even see it, or barely notice it, then it's not enough of a problem to worry about anymore. 

You wanna see civil rights abuses look at China or Saudi Arabia or Iran. 
People have it really good here, and the playing field is level already.
We have a black president, if that means anything to you.

By that token, if you can't see a problem it doesn't exist.  Could you consider that you might be blind to the problem because it doesn't hinder you, as a presumably white privileged male?

I'm suggesting, to be more blunt, that your paradigm is the very definition of white blindness: " Problem, what problem, I don't see a problem. I have friends who are black. I'm not a racist and neither is America. We gave them their rights (a racist statement right there) and now they want more than equality, they want superiority, a financial advantage."

Are they, perhaps, "acting white" since white America capitalism has always sought superiority and a financial advantage?

Anagrammy

[The Philosopher]

Well, yes we do - and it does.  That's a game changer no matter how this administration works out.  (and for those of you who do not care for Obama - just let me say:

 

• I'm disappointed myself
• let's be grateful it wasn't Jessie Jackson  )

But consider these things, some of which I believe had significant influence on Obama's electability - they have to do with his sociological demographic, as opposed to the color of his skin - and they are decidedly WHITE:

 

• He's a Harvard grad - an historical bastion of white male privilege if there ever was one. 
• He was raised by a white woman, his African father was largely absent form the scene.
• the subtleties of his speech, demeanor, and general social (and I'm speaking casual social here - not "social movement" social) presence is more white than African American. His wife is another story.
• He is not a descendant of American slaves.

are these things a big deal, particularly for our very first president who is obviously of color?  (there have been others, BTW - with Africans on their family tree.  It just didn't show and wasn't mentioned.) No, they're just interesting.

I will feel we have learned something more when we have a president of African descent - male or female -  (similar things could be said for any "nonwhite" - but Obama is the example here) who:

 

• Attended Morehouse College or - preferably - a coed equivalent.  (IE: high quality competitive college with a history of serving, primarily, nonwhites)
• Displays, in his social interactions, the cultural qualities of his or her heritage.
• Is descended from US or Caribbean slaves.
• Had at least one parental figure from his or her cultural heritage present in the home during developmental years.

Am I nitpicking?  Yes, absolutely.  But sometimes those nits deserve some attention.

 
Why?

[Eddie Coyle]

By that token, if you can't see a problem it doesn't exist.  Could you consider that you might be blind to the problem because it doesn't hinder you, as a presumably white privileged male?

I'm suggesting, to be more blunt, that your paradigm is the very definition of white blindness: " Problem, what problem, I don't see a problem. I have friends who are black. I'm not a racist and neither is America. We gave them their rights (a racist statement right there) and now they want more than equality, they want superiority, a financial advantage."

Are they, perhaps, "acting white" since white America capitalism has always sought superiority and a financial advantage?

Anagrammy

             My oh my....it's a real-life Bobbi Dooley!

[EvB]

Why?

You are a smart guy, so I can only assume I'm communicating poorly.

Because - a nonwhite presidential candidate who brings positive culture elements that are not part of the white mainstream to the table, and we accept them, then - more clearly than in Obama's case - we are accepting a nonwhite leader, not just a token who happens to fit in well with the status quo.

And, I didn't mean to imply - though I clearly did - that all of those things on my list are needed.  Damn, I'd settle for one.  but, for education in particular, I'd like to see a leader educated in a milieu that celebrates, rather than simply tolerates, that person's heritage. Schools like Morehouse and Spellman do that - and have since their inception.

[onan]

That sucks, but it's anecdotal.  A black president is not.

I doubt we are going to see any substantive study called "Racism: Why I am for it."
 
But if you want some evidence a poll in PA a few months before the Obama election overwhelmingly said that the US isn't ready for a black president. I do not know the actual numbers but I am fairly certain it was in the 80 percentile.
 
No lynchings are a thing of the past... oh wait the hangsman's noose in the tree near a high school that wanted to have it's first integrated prom a few years back.
 
Do we still bring boats from Africa? no but I guess this is where the need for discussion may be valid.
 
I want to get a bit long winded here. I had a friend named Lamont. For reference if you have ever seen the move Silence of the Lambs, the scene where the guy approaches the house with a box of flowers... that guy was Lamont. We were talking and he said something prescient: "I get scared whenever a cop is behind me while driving."
 
 

[The General]

By that token, if you can't see a problem it doesn't exist.  Could you consider that you might be blind to the problem because it doesn't hinder you, as a presumably white privileged male?

I'm suggesting, to be more blunt, that your paradigm is the very definition of white blindness: " Problem, what problem, I don't see a problem. I have friends who are black. I'm not a racist and neither is America. We gave them their rights (a racist statement right there) and now they want more than equality, they want superiority, a financial advantage."

Are they, perhaps, "acting white" since white America capitalism has always sought superiority and a financial advantage?

Anagrammy

Define hinder.  All I'm saying is that in other parts of the world, being different can get you executed, raped, maimed, dismembered, put into a prison camp, etc.  If you compare the situation in America to the realities of the rest of the world, instead of an ideal that exists NOWHERE, you'll see that our problems here are minor indeed.

[EvB]

 If you compare the situation in America to the realities of the rest of the world, instead of an ideal that exists NOWHERE, you'll see that our problems here are minor indeed.

Well sure it's relative.  Should that make us complacent?  If nothing else, we need to look at the ways in which we support, encourage and in too many case create the very problems you speak of.

[The Philosopher]

You are a smart guy, so I can only assume I'm communicating poorly.

Because - a nonwhite presidential candidate who brings positive culture elements that are not part of the white mainstream to the table, and we accept them, then - more clearly than in Obama's case - we are accepting a nonwhite leader, not just a token who happens to fit in well with the status quo.

And, I didn't mean to imply - though I clearly did - that all of those things on my list are needed.  Damn, I'd settle for one.

 
 
I hate to be picky, but please define the following for me, in the context of what you are trying to say:
 
 

• nonwhite
• positive culture elements
• white mainstream
• token
• status quo

 
You've posited a framework for a paradigm that supposedly has benefits for us.  Therefore, if I countered by suggesting:
 
 

• That the country would be better off if we had a white presidential candidate who attended a mostly white college.
• Displays, in his social interactions, the cultural qualities of his or her heritage.
• Is descended from Europe or North Africa.
• Had at least one parental figure from his or her cultural heritage present in the home during developmental years.

... would I be equally correct?
 
I think we have somewhat lost sight of the fact that an American President should reflect an 'American values culture', not predominantly a racial culture.  It is to our peril when we make monumental decisions regarding the leadership of the country based on a theoretical cultural or gender-based contribution.  It is sophmoric in a social-psychological sense.

[EvB]

 
     So many Caucasians view self-loathing as the highest paragon of virtue. Big yellow streak up their backs...they can't expire soon enough.

       

But goddamn that stuff can get pounded into you. 

You know when i FINALY decided that mine had to go?  Not fade, mind you but G-O GO?  When i gave birth to my blue-eyed boy.  having a child, particularly one who is strongly desired, can be an experience so intense it is akin to religious conversion. An ultimate epiphany.

I had a son.  He would be a man, and given my own social and cultural heritage, he would be a WASP man.

Did I teach him about social and racial issue?  Did i teach him to give when he could, to support others as they supported him? to understand why sometimes they would not due to his fresh freckled face? Of course. 

Did I ever let him get away with backing down from a goal based on some misguided guilt or notion that somehow he had to give up something that he, by accident of birth, may have more access to than others?  NEVER. Not my baby.  No way in hell.

It can still be a struggle for me at times.  Habits die hard. But my son knows better.  That is my success.

[EvB]

... would I be equally correct?

No, I don't believe so.

You make some fine points and ask some fair questions nevertheless.  i wish I had time to address them now and I hope I will in the near future. I have to think carefully, because I want to be as clear as I can.

For now, let me just say that the I think we have lots of leaders of white European descent. some of them are great - some of them suck - most of them land somewhere in between.  That's the nature of people & politics.

I would never say that a leader whose primary cultural orientation was an American extract of northern white European was therefore a bad leader. In fact, I often am saddened by the neglect (in the name of diversity) of many northern white European cultural qualities and cultural myths. 

There, too, there is work to be done.

[EvB]

It is to our peril when we make monumental decisions regarding the leadership of the country based on a theoretical cultural or gender-based contribution.  It is sophmoric in a social-psychological sense.

This part I agree with. the primary question must always be "is he or she good leadership material?" The rest is secondary, at most.

[onan]

 
I think we have somewhat lost sight of the fact that an American President should reflect an 'American values culture', not predominantly a racial culture.

I completely agree, now tell me what recent president truly reflected American values?
 
Bush--lied us into a war, oh wait 2 wars.
 
Clinton--spent 2 years of his presidency defending a blowjob
 
Bush Sr.--cover-up of Iran-Contra during the 1980s, and the cover-up continues to this day
 
Reagan--treated the poor poorly, did not tend to the sick, ketchup is a vegetable, welfare queen in chicago was completely made up
 
Carter--may have been the last president to truly represent American values. imo
 
racism is bad.

[The General]

Well sure it's relative.  Should that make us complacent?  If nothing else, we need to look at the ways in which we support, encourage and in too many case create the very problems you speak of.

Not complacent.  But I wish it would make people realize that dancing around on the head of a pin about how Obama isn't black enough because he 'acts white' and didn't go to an all black college is about as racist as it gets here in the USA.  Who gets to decide what acting white or acting black means?  Or are you suggesting that race dictates behavior?

[aldousburbank]

I agree with The General, we all have it pretty good here.  Institutional and individual racism is a remnant of cultural habituation and bad childhood memes, IMO.  Where I live, three cultures have been coexisting just fine for some time, and newcomers of any stripe are welcome, generally speaking.  There are many Baltic, Somalian, and other immigrant communities here that are well supported by the larger populace.  Individually, there's still racist chewing gum tossed about that can stick to your shoes from time to time.

A funny example:  Once while my son and I were leaving a retail parking lot, we spotted a hopped up muscle car that wouldn't start and the driver needed to push it out of the traffic lane.  My son and I quickly jumped out and started assisting, from the rear, the guy who was now trying to push as he steered.  As soon as we started helping, we heard the dude cussing at a car in his way.  He was screaming : Get the F out of my way you f'ing wetback sons of bitches- go back where you came from..."  The fellow had not yet turned around to see that a Mexican and his brown son were helping the guy push as he bellowed his racist crap.  When we got the car out of the way he turned and started thanking us he saw that we were the same color as the other guys he was cussing.  It was beautiful, in that the guy looked like he was really embarrassed.  He shook our hands and told us he appreciated the help, "brothers."

[The Philosopher]

I completely agree, now tell me what recent president truly reflected American values?
 
Bush--lied us into a war, oh wait 2 wars.
 
Clinton--spent 2 years of his presidency defending a blowjob
 
Bush Sr.--cover-up of Iran-Contra during the 1980s, and the cover-up continues to this day
 
Reagan--treated the poor poorly, did not tend to the sick, ketchup is a vegetable, welfare queen in chicago was completely made up
 
Carter--may have been the last president to truly represent American values. imo
 
racism is bad.

Maybe they were reflecting "American Values".  Just the wrong ones.

[onan]

Maybe they were reflecting "American Values".  Just the wrong ones.

Well put.

[EvB]

I hate to be picky, but

okay - I just got some time freed up, so at the risk of boring everyone to tears, let me take a shot at this.

NONWHITE

Someone whose primary cultural heritage is not north African or European. positive culture elements Any aspect of the person's cultural heritage that contributes to overall American culture and well-being. The traditional Native American belief that our earth is something to care for as we use it's resources, not only exploit, is the one that first pops into my mind.


WHITE MAINSTREAM

Similar, in our culture, to Status Quo. "Good 'ol boys" and all that. What was once referred to in Black-American culture (crudely and unfairly - but I hope it makes the point) as "being an Oreo - black on the outside, white on the inside" Condi Rice being a "yes man" and a "good 'ol boy" as opposed to contributing her own values and perspectives as a woman of color. This one is becoming less of an issue as we do try to promote diversity. We haven't done a great job so far - but time will tell.
 

TOKEN

I refer to tokenism: A false appearance of inclusive practice. We have had one black president. Is he just a token of in the minds of the established power (as I firmly believe Rice was and is)?

Even a token can open the door to real inclusion for the future. Time will tell.


STATUS QUO

Going along with how things have always been. Taking a "go along to get along" attitude rather than being more true, more genuine to one self (this presumes, of course, that "one's self" includes leadership capability) Accepting the way things are, as opposed to the way they could be; the existing state of affairs.


As for being "equally correct" with the list you mention, the reason it's not equal is simply that we already have that. Lots of that.
 

As a silly, but hopefully apt, example - let's say that a 97 pound weakling is dumb enough to punch Arnold Schwarzenegger as he was in his prime. Arnold responds, also with a single punch, and knocks the weakling's lights out. It may be an understandable reaction, but is it equal? I don't think so.

I'm not suggesting that an African American president with the background I listed would therefore be a better president. I'm suggesting that when the American public elects such a president (again, presuming the needed and wanted qualification are present first, one of which is that he or she is there to serve us all) that is when I will know we have become comfortable with the idea of an African American president.

It's not about him or her, it's about us.

 
We've already had a number of leaders who meet many, if not all, of the criteria I listed. A short sample list includes:

 
Marcelite J. Harris the first female African American to rise to the level of general in the United States Air Force.

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr

Walter E. Massey, the first African-American mayor of Atlanta

David Satcher, former United States Surgeon General

Louis W. Sullivan, former Secretary of Health and Human Services

This is a hopeful sign. But, King was a social activist, not a government official. He was also murdered for his pains. The only elected individual on this list is Walter E. Massey.

And so it seems we have a way to go before patting ourselves on the back.

[EvB]

Not complacent.  But I wish it would make people realize that dancing around on the head of a pin about how Obama isn't black enough because he 'acts white' and didn't go to an all black college is about as racist as it gets here in the USA.  Who gets to decide what acting white or acting black means?  Or are you suggesting that race dictates behavior?

Again, no. 

I'm suggesting that we, Americans on the whole, and human beings on the whole, are most comfortable with what they are used to.  And, that bias may lead to bad choices - or more likely not considering choices that could be good ones, without even realizing it. We're not gong to ever totally change that, nor should we.  It's our nature for very good (survival) reasons.  But, we are not purely instinctive animals. We can step outside that comfort zone when the situation calls for it.

The point is, Obama was just the handy example - and I'm not really talking about him. I'm talking about all of us - the US citizenry with the right to vote.

As for my comments being racist - meh.  Maybe - but that was certainly not my intent.  They are racially and culturally referenced, but that isn't the same thing.

But more important, if you honestly believe that the things i had to say are "about as racist as it gets here in the USA" then I say you need to look more closely, in more places. Things HAVE improved.  They continue to in many ways. But, progress always brings on backlash from those who cannot step outside their own comfort zone. 

I think we are in a time in our progress where we still need some level of vigilance about that.

[EvB]

 
I hate to be picky,

No you don't  , but that is part of what i love about you.

[JustOneFix]

I just skimmed this thread but I'll add my 2 cents.

I've held the opinion for many years that everyone hates certain people, some are more vocal about it than others.

The NAACP, Rainbow Push Coalition, Black Panthers and the Uhurus, etc are racist towards all non blacks- be it Caucasian, Asian, Hispanic whatever. Something doesn't go their way, they cry racism. "They didn't have any whole wheat bread at the store, they're racist because they know I wanted to buy whole wheat bread"

All races are guilty of this, I don't give a damn what color you are, racism is no where near being eradicated and if anything I think it's getting worse.

I hear Mexicans talking smack about blacks, Asians talking crap about whites, blacks calling us white folks honkeys & crackers but yet if we call them a n____ or other similar term, it's a hate crime. Eliminate the double standard. No one race should be above or below any other. I'm not going to lie, I hate everybody on equal basis, especially the vast majority of my relatives... LOL

My question to y'all-  When you go out to eat do you look for a place with Chateau style architecture or a Chateau style feel? 

And did you attend Austin Amarka's "Gathering of Friends"  in Solvay, CA?

(The above 2 sentences are purely tongue in cheek. It's a Phil Hendrie bit if you don't get it.)

[The Philosopher]

No you don't  , but that is part of what i love about you.

There is a radio commercial airing regionally here advocating fair housing practices, i.e., non-discrimination against rental applicants.  All well and good, until you actually listen to it. 


Interestingly, the commercial spokesman actually states that "it is better to have a racially mixed neighborhood than a mostly white neighborhood..."


This premise is raw racism at its ugliest, all in the name of social justice. 

• Why is it intrinsically better for a neighborhood to be racially mixed, rather than mostly white?

• Why would not both conditions of a neighborhood be equally good?

• If a predominantly white neighborhood can be made "better" by an infusion of non-whites, then is the following statement also true?:

"A predominantly black neighborhood can be made "better" by an infusion of white people". 


Does anyone see the illogic inherent in this approach to seeking social justice?

[The Philosopher]

okay - I just got some time freed up, so at the risk of boring everyone to tears, let me take a shot at this.


WHITE MAINSTREAM

Similar, in our culture, to Status Quo. "Good 'ol boys" and all that. What was once referred to in Black-American culture (crudely and unfairly - but I hope it makes the point) as "being an Oreo - black on the outside, white on the inside" Condi Rice being a "yes man" and a "good 'ol boy" as opposed to contributing her own values and perspectives as a woman of color. This one is becoming less of an issue as we do try to promote diversity. We haven't done a great job so far - but time will tell.
 
This dramatically limits the effectiveness of your argument.  Who determines that this actually is the status quo? 

And.... why must Condi Rice give a perspective "as a woman of color" and not just as a woman, or an educated woman with a Ph.D.? 

I don't find myself walking around giving my perspective as a "man of white".

Do you see how this concept assumes (even creates) permanent racial division?



As for being "equally correct" with the list you mention, the reason it's not equal is simply that we already have that. Lots of that.
 
I'm not suggesting that an African American president with the background I listed would therefore be a better president. I'm suggesting that when the American public elects such a president (again, presuming the needed and wanted qualification are present first, one of which is that he or she is there to serve us all) that is when I will know we have become comfortable with the idea of an African American president.

It's not about him or her, it's about us.

Yes, but it is about both.  I believe that an African American president will be much more effective if he or she has had broad exposure and appreciation for all strata of American life, racial richness and culture.

The more culturally unipolar the individual, the less they are able to effectively represent our pluralistic nation.


 
We've already had a number of leaders who meet many, if not all, of the criteria I listed. A short sample list includes:

 
Marcelite J. Harris the first female African American to rise to the level of general in the United States Air Force.

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr

Walter E. Massey, the first African-American mayor of Atlanta

David Satcher, former United States Surgeon General

Louis W. Sullivan, former Secretary of Health and Human Services

This is a hopeful sign. But, King was a social activist, not a government official. He was also murdered for his pains. The only elected individual on this list is Walter E. Massey.

And so it seems we have a way to go before patting ourselves on the back.

[The General]

As for my comments being racist - meh.  Maybe - but that was certainly not my intent.  They are racially and culturally referenced, but that isn't the same thing.

But more important, if you honestly believe that the things i had to say are "about as racist as it gets here in the USA" then I say you need to look more closely, in more places. Things HAVE improved.  They continue to in many ways. But, progress always brings on backlash from those who cannot step outside their own comfort zone. 

Yeah, I didn't mean to insinuate that you were being racist, sorry about that.  Really I just mean to say that, YES, racism is alive and well in the USA.  But it is usually pretty harmless: words, namecalling, and rhetoric.  Nobody's getting lynched.  We went from a nation of slave owners and slaves, to a nation where a predominantly white voting block elected a black president.  Considering the progress we've made, and considering the staggering cultural, economic, and values problems we are now faced with, talking about racism at this juncture is like discussing the weather on the Titanic.

[anagrammy]

Define hinder.  All I'm saying is that in other parts of the world, being different can get you executed, raped, maimed, dismembered, put into a prison camp, etc.  If you compare the situation in America to the realities of the rest of the world, instead of an ideal that exists NOWHERE, you'll see that our problems here are minor indeed.

Define different.


Anagrammy

[EvB]

it depends on what your definition of is is.