Topic: Noam Chomsky

[b_dubb]

i didn't realize how political a C2C forum would be.  but in hindsight i guess any place where people are discussing conspiracy theories .... you're going to see their politics come out eventually.  i'd like to post this Noam Chomsky interview because i see his rationalism as a counter weight to some of the sensational ideas that people like Alex Jones and other C2C guests. 


anyway ... here's Noam ...

A MUST SEE Interview by Noam Chomsky

[onan]

i didn't realize how political a C2C forum would be.  but in hindsight i guess any place where people are discussing conspiracy theories .... you're going to see their politics come out eventually.  i'd like to post this Noam Chomsky interview because i see his rationalism as a counter weight to some of the sensational ideas that people like Alex Jones and other C2C guests. 


anyway ... here's Noam ...


A MUST SEE Interview by Noam Chomsky

This guy is my hero.

[b_dubb]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky

he spoke at my college when i was an undergrad.  i went to hang out at my favorite coffee shop that night and there was an elderly couple coming out when i was about to head inside.  i held the door open for them while they left.  the elderly man looked at me and smiled and said thanks.  i walked inside and immediately the shop owner said "DUDE!!! THAT'S SO COOL! YOU JUST HELD THE DOOR FOR NOAM CHOMSKY!!!".  i was 19 and had no idea who he was

[Lena]

that's a nice story.

I like Chomsky. He makes a lot of sense. I just disagree with his 9/11 opinion obviously, since he either doesn't know enough facts, or doesn't want to publicly admit, that it was an inside job. I hope it's the former in his case.

[guildnavigator]

Lena, you can go to the following website to discuss Noam Chomsky:



http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/discussion/Noam_Chomsky

[The General]

Really?  You guys surprise me.  I can't stomach most of his beliefs, he's way, way out in left field.

"By comparative standards, the country is undertaxed. And it's also regressively taxed, the tax burden falls mostly on the poor. What we need is a progressive tax system... we'd be a lot better off if we were higher taxed, and it was used for proper purposes." - Chomsky

I couldn't disagree with this more.  The reality is that the top 50% of wage earners pay 95% of all the federal income taxes in America.  The poor pay very little in taxes.  I don't know how he gets away with saying such fraudulent things and still has followers.   I pay easily half of my money in tax if you figure income tax, state tax, sales tax, gas tax, property tax, etc etc etc.   How much does Noam want me to pay?  75%?  And my faith in the government to manage it well is dead.

I could post a 10 page reply about all the things he says that I disagree with.  Like his belief that America is largely the problem in the world, not the exceptional wonderful experiment  that it is.  That's why everybody flocks to this country, Noam, last I checked there aren't any lines to get out.  But I'll just sum it up by saying that there is very little that he says that I don't find dispicabe. 

But that's freedom of speech, and that's what's great about our country.  I work next to a Communist Book store, a little not for profit deal run by little old socialist ladies in tennis shoes.  They all look to be about 120, they're probably survivors of the Triangle Shirt Waist fire.  I find their political views deeply disturbing.  But this country that they bad mouth allows them the freedom to have a communist book store.  Try opening a dissenting book store in China and see how far you get.  Try opening a Christian Book store in Saudi Arabia.  It takes no bravery to be a dissenter in the USA.  That's the beauty.  So even though I despise Noam Chomsky's views, I applaud the US of A for being a place where he can say whatever the fuck he wants. 

[Lena]

I have to revise what I wrote.
He has some good points in his "manufacturing consent" arguments,
but besides that he's a bit of a deceptionist.
I just heard an interview where he said "who cares who killed JFK". Jesus!
Of course I also dispise Communism - which always results in more poor people,
smaller middle class, and a ultra rich elite. And I like guns!
Anyway, I didn't read any of his books, but I watched several interviews,
which tell me enough to know that I wouldn't enjoy reading
this arm-chair intellectual's material.

[onan]

Really?  You guys surprise me.  I can't stomach most of his beliefs, he's way, way out in left field.

"By comparative standards, the country is undertaxed. And it's also regressively taxed, the tax burden falls mostly on the poor. What we need is a progressive tax system... we'd be a lot better off if we were higher taxed, and it was used for proper purposes." - Chomsky

I couldn't disagree with this more.  The reality is that the top 50% of wage earners pay 95% of all the federal income taxes in America.  The poor pay very little in taxes.  I don't know how he gets away with saying such fraudulent things and still has followers.   I pay easily half of my money in tax if you figure income tax, state tax, sales tax, gas tax, property tax, etc etc etc.   How much does Noam want me to pay?  75%?  And my faith in the government to manage it well is dead.

I could post a 10 page reply about all the things he says that I disagree with.  Like his belief that America is largely the problem in the world, not the exceptional wonderful experiment  that it is.  That's why everybody flocks to this country, Noam, last I checked there aren't any lines to get out.  But I'll just sum it up by saying that there is very little that he says that I don't find dispicabe. 

But that's freedom of speech, and that's what's great about our country.  I work next to a Communist Book store, a little not for profit deal run by little old socialist ladies in tennis shoes.  They all look to be about 120, they're probably survivors of the Triangle Shirt Waist fire.  I find their political views deeply disturbing.  But this country that they bad mouth allows them the freedom to have a communist book store.  Try opening a dissenting book store in China and see how far you get.  Try opening a Christian Book store in Saudi Arabia.  It takes no bravery to be a dissenter in the USA.  That's the beauty.  So even though I despise Noam Chomsky's views, I applaud the US of A for being a place where he can say whatever the fuck he wants.

This country is regressively taxed and an unfair amount does fall on the poor (we can vilify them later). Simply put it takes a certain amount of income to function as a household. A certain amount for food, shelter, and clothing. The poor fall short of that amount almost daily. They still have to pay taxes though. The same gas tax you do. The same sales tax you do. But those that do not struggle with meeting the basic income have less difficulty paying their taxes. The very wealthy would not have any difficulty.

We all would be better off if taxes were higher and used for proper purposes. It's just that we have a difference of opinion of what better off means.

[The General]

This country is regressively taxed and an unfair amount does fall on the poor (we can vilify them later). Simply put it takes a certain amount of income to function as a household. A certain amount for food, shelter, and clothing. The poor fall short of that amount almost daily. They still have to pay taxes though. The same gas tax you do. The same sales tax you do. But those that do not struggle with meeting the basic income have less difficulty paying their taxes. The very wealthy would not have any difficulty.

We all would be better off if taxes were higher and used for proper purposes. It's just that we have a difference of opinion of what better off means.

That's the problem.  It's NOT used for proper purposes.  I think we both agree on that.
 But what percentage of taxes should I have to pay?  At what point would you say taxes are too high?
At what point in progressivism are the brakes applied?

[MV]

It takes no bravery to be a dissenter in the USA.

this is what's at the heart of my disgust for americans (or those IN america) who incessantly talk this country down or look to it first as a probable cause of any global problem.  it's just not impressive to do so in a society rooted in the belief that you should be able to do so.


in north korea, a cameraman was nearly ejected from the country for lying down in front of a statue of the "great leader" so that he could get a better shot.


point made.

[onan]

this is what's at the heart of my disgust for americans (or those IN america) who incessantly talk this country down or look to it first as a probable cause of any global problem.  it's just not impressive to do so in a society rooted in the belief that you should be able to do so.


in north korea, a cameraman was nearly ejected from the country for lying down in front of a statue of the "great leader" so that he could get a better shot.


point made.

So because there is no threat of harm protesting in the US, it has no validity? Only those in a totolitarian give credibility to dissent?

I too find it annoying when a group protests over what I consider a non-issue. But shouldn't we be proud of that fact? And if we are silent in a country where speech is allowed how can the truly oppressed ever be recognized?

I do not think that the US is evil nor do I think that the american people are uncaring if they have the facts. Unfortunately, for whatever the reason, many talking heads would rather distract from issues than fully illuminate them. So instead of finding answers and solutions to approximately 25000 to 36000 children starving to death everyday in the world we are discussing the corruption of donation sites and the inept beaurocracies dealing with the issue.

We as Americans have a standard of living that is incomparable to 70 percent of the world... shouldn't that give us pause? I dont think Americans are intrinsically evil but I do think that we are culpable for a crapload of things that most are not even aware of. Don't believe me... take a good look at the bananas on your breakfast table.

I find the cognitive dissonance here to be painful. On one hand we should never talk this country down. On the other hand we have a corrupt government that has nothing but bastards doing nothing but evil manipulations to enslave us.

[MV]

So because there is no threat of harm protesting in the US, it has no validity? Only those in a totolitarian give credibility to dissent?

i never used the word "credibility."  i don't think any of us can determine the credibility of one's dissent.  however, i don't respect those in america who continually point the finger in the mirror.  i think it generally comes from a place of personal guilt and a need for acceptance, neither of which are traits i share.  perhaps the lesser evolved, immature, teenage version of myself shared those traits, but not the 31 year old version of me.

We as Americans have a standard of living that is incomparable to 70 percent of the world... shouldn't that give us pause?

this is the difference between people like you and people like me.  you look at our quality of life and inherently assume we must be culpable in some way or have done something wrong.  that's so ass backwards to me.  i see our standard of living and conclude we must have done something right.

I find the cognitive dissonance here to be painful. On one hand we should never talk this country down. On the other hand we have a corrupt government that has nothing but bastards doing nothing but evil manipulations to enslave us.

don't confuse the country with the government.  they are not one in the same.

[onan]

i never used the word "credibility."  i don't think any of us can determine the credibility of one's dissent.  however, i don't respect those in america who continually point the finger in the mirror.  i think it generally comes from a place of personal guilt and a need for acceptance, neither of which are traits i share.  perhaps the lesser evolved, immature, teenage version of myself shared those traits, but not the 31 year old version of me.

this is the difference between people like you and people like me.  you look at our quality of life and inherently assume we must be culpable in some way or have done something wrong.  that's so ass backwards to me.  i see our standard of living and conclude we must have done something right.

don't confuse the country with the government.  they are not one in the same.

I was making the point that criticism of this country isn't necessarily saying this country is bad. Why should criticism disgust you or anyone for that matter. I thought we were way past the love it or leave it mentality.

No I do not think we have necessarily done something wrong far from it in many ways we have excelled. What I am saying is that to not have any awareness that many do not have the standard we do is problematic. Especially when so much evidence points to exploitation of third world countries. Does that mean you did something wrong? not directly no but to not see the severe injustice in the world and not have some measure of concern is turning a blind eye.

I do not confuse the two terms. Perhaps you can explain the difference to me. I see the government as an extension of our population. We do elect the officials that are our government. The term country by itself is very general and connotes different things to different people, essentially a euphemism. I would wager most people would easily state they love their country but what does that mean? I love my standard of living, love access to commodities I need to lead my life, love the ability to see friends and family but I do not consider those qualities to be the foundation of my country.

I am not trying to be antagonistic if it feels that way I apologize. I was raised to discuss points of contention rather than let them go unchallenged.

[Do you think it was angels?]

What I am saying is that to not have any awareness that many do not have the standard we do is problematic.

Why?

I bemoan Americans' lack of attention to America's affairs, not foreign ones.

[M. Knight]

Why?

I bemoan Americans' lack of attention to America's affairs, not foreign ones.

This is right on.  I cannot remember the name of the group, but a few years ago a "medical foreign aid group" decided to set up a medical and dental tent in a rural area of Appalachia (basically on a whim).  Well, thousands of poverty-stricken people showed up with serious, previously untreated medical and dental problems. 

Why we give billions to boneheads who want to castrate us with a rusty spoon is beyond me. 

[onan]

This is right on.  I cannot remember the name of the group, but a few years ago a "medical foreign aid group" decided to set up a medical and dental tent in a rural area of Appalachia (basically on a whim).  Well, thousands of poverty-stricken people showed up with serious, previously untreated medical and dental problems. 

Why we give billions to boneheads who want to castrate us with a rusty spoon is beyond me. 

I fully understand your position. It does make a person do a double take.

I too become upset with the injustices that take place in this country such as almost if not slightly over 25 percent of US children do not get enough to eat.

The whys and wherefores are somewhat complicated and no matter what I say here I will piss off someone with my stance on the methods used by the US in other countries. But I do want to make the point that many times the supposed help we give to foreign countries from the government (not privately donated) comes with significant strings attached. First off The World Bank will finance large scale infrastructure improvements in a third world country but instead of using the work force in that country, the world bank will insist the work be done by large corporations such as Halliburton. The infrastructure although certainly something a country can use most of the population has little use for 24 hour a day electricity or highways when the population does not have housing or automotive transportation. Secondly, the financing isn't a donation but rather a debt that in all reality was never going to be paid back but the collateral of the nation's resources are now available to the people calling in on the loan.

So when you see other nation's people upset with the US (a major player in the world bank) it becomes a bit easier to understand their frustration. Especially since in many cases we as a governemnt were helpful in setting up the leader in the country.

But yes we in the US also have legitimate concerns over the lack of care offered to us: medical, educational, financial, and nutritional needs have been disregarded for decades mostly with those who are not in need taking the position of the bootstrap.

For myself even though I maintain an atheistic/agnostic mindset I do follow the premise of the very popular jesus christ. And that premise is we are all god's children and when one suffers we all suffer. I have seen starvation first hand. I have seen how it devistates not only those suffering in the moment but the surrounding people that are powerless to help. How people turn from caring to fear and start to ostracise out of concern for their own well being. We in the US are more than lucky and so many of us have no idea how bad others have it.

To your point of medical camps, it is a very good one. And it has been done more than once with the same scenario a handfull of doctors, nurses, and allied health teams go into an area to help with acute medical problems. And it is like a bomb hit, the volunteers are overwhelmed from the getgo. What was planned as a one to two day operation becomes a 96 hour non-stop treatment center with people still not getting medical attention and at the same time we have people taking the positon that we do not need a redo on how medical insurance/treatment is provided... there is your "beyond me" moment.

[M. Knight]

I fully understand your position. It does make a person do a double take.

I too become upset with the injustices that take place in this country such as almost if not slightly over 25 percent of US children do not get enough to eat.

The whys and wherefores are somewhat complicated and no matter what I say here I will piss off someone with my stance on the methods used by the US in other countries. But I do want to make the point that many times the supposed help we give to foreign countries from the government (not privately donated) comes with significant strings attached. First off The World Bank will finance large scale infrastructure improvements in a third world country but instead of using the work force in that country, the world bank will insist the work be done by large corporations such as Halliburton. The infrastructure although certainly something a country can use most of the population has little use for 24 hour a day electricity or highways when the population does not have housing or automotive transportation. Secondly, the financing isn't a donation but rather a debt that in all reality was never going to be paid back but the collateral of the nation's resources are now available to the people calling in on the loan.

So when you see other nation's people upset with the US (a major player in the world bank) it becomes a bit easier to understand their frustration. Especially since in many cases we as a governemnt were helpful in setting up the leader in the country.

But yes we in the US also have legitimate concerns over the lack of care offered to us: medical, educational, financial, and nutritional needs have been disregarded for decades mostly with those who are not in need taking the position of the bootstrap.

For myself even though I maintain an atheistic/agnostic mindset I do follow the premise of the very popular jesus christ. And that premise is we are all god's children and when one suffers we all suffer. I have seen starvation first hand. I have seen how it devistates not only those suffering in the moment but the surrounding people that are powerless to help. How people turn from caring to fear and start to ostracise out of concern for their own well being. We in the US are more than lucky and so many of us have no idea how bad others have it.

To your point of medical camps, it is a very good one. And it has been done more than once with the same scenario a handfull of doctors, nurses, and allied health teams go into an area to help with acute medical problems. And it is like a bomb hit, the volunteers are overwhelmed from the getgo. What was planned as a one to two day operation becomes a 96 hour non-stop treatment center with people still not getting medical attention and at the same time we have people taking the positon that we do not need a redo on how medical insurance/treatment is provided... there is your "beyond me" moment.

The major media here really shys away from revealing our social injustices.  My wife and I used to live in northern Vermont (-30 not uncommon in the winter) and we literally stumbled upon the fact that thousands of Vermont children did not have sufficient coats, mittens or shoes to wear.  We started asking for local donations of winter coats in particular, and would then drop them off at area schools by the dozens.  (usually the school nurse managed distribution in a discrete way).  My point being that we have an over-abundance of work to do right here.
 
I agree with the sense that the US government has been a tool for big business interests (the formation of the US Marines was to protect US maritime commerce), but many of these countries that cry now have benefited greatly from US entrepreneurs. 
 
 

[MV]

...many of these countries that cry now have benefited greatly from US entrepreneurs.

i'm curious as to why these countries, given the details of what's coming, don't just... uhh... say "no thanks."

[M. Knight]

i'm curious as to why these countries, given the details of what's coming, don't just... uhh... say "no thanks."

 
Chinese Prime Minister Wen JiaBao has a big chequebook.
 
"Africa needs infrastructure," said Youssouf Ouedraogo, a special adviser to the president of the African Development Bank.
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8350228.stm
 
You think the US was bad...wait until the Chinese call in their chips.

[onan]

i'm curious as to why these countries, given the details of what's coming, don't just... uhh... say "no thanks."

That's a very good question, I would guess there are many reasons. Some perhaps with hope want to better their society, some leaders have been put into position by us... including the Shaw if Iran,  Manuel Bonilla in Costa Rica... the list is longer but I don't want to spend more time on this, I have alienated more than I wish to. Also note that the US is hardly the only culprit in this type manipulation. The former USSR, England, Italy, Germany, China are also complicit.

[onan]

Chinese Prime Minister Wen JiaBao has a big chequebook.
 
"Africa needs infrastructure," said Youssouf Ouedraogo, a special adviser to the president of the African Development Bank.
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8350228.stm
 
You think the US was bad...wait until the Chinese call in their chips.

Yeah that is gonna be some bleak days... and we got our share of bleak coming.

[b_dubb]

You think the US was bad...wait until the Chinese call in their chips.

i think we're currently in the midst of a currency war with China.  they artificially deflate the value of the Yen.  i won't pretend to understand the complexities of this kind of warfare.  if someone here does (or thinks that they do) please feel free to spill the beans