Topic: Immigration Law Rant

[MV]

....and just served to completely shoot my faith in the educational system in the head.

There really isn't much of an educational system anymore.  Or, more accurately, there is very little education being performed by the system.

I know this doesn't make me some sort of an original thinker, but I see it as an indoctrination system before anything else.

[M. Knight]

....and just served to completely shoot my faith in the educational system in the head.

There really isn't much of an educational system anymore.  Or, more accurately, there is very little education being performed by the system.

I know this doesn't make me some sort of an original thinker, but I see it as an indoctrination system before anything else.

In principle, I agree.  The vast majority of our educators have never been trained to think critically, therefore students also are not taught this.  The prevailing education methodology is simply to memorize A, B, or C, but not to critically analyze the topic to discern one's own logic-based decision, understanding, and inter-relationships.  In today's American educational process, only philosophy students will have any exposure to formal critical thinking methodologies.

[GuerrillaUnReal]

....and just served to completely shoot my faith in the educational system in the head.

There really isn't much of an educational system anymore.  Or, more accurately, there is very little education being performed by the system.

I know this doesn't make me some sort of an original thinker, but I see it as an indoctrination system before anything else.

I can take dropping multi-million dollar "smart" weapons on civilians, I can take rampant corruption of our "leaders" right in my face, but the one topic that will send me into a fury is the education system. What we have now is a system that will turn out 90% idiots incapable of meeting the challenges of the 21st century and who will only be able to consume and multiply. The other 10% will be the ones who's parents were wealthy enough to keep them out of the low security prisons we call public schools. I'm lucky that I got out right as all this new bullshit with education started. Right now in my state kids are only prepared to pass a test called the WASL, not anything else. And to show you just how fucking poor of a job these people do with something that simple, only something like 15% of kids can pass it. I was one of only three kids out of my entire high school who passed all four categories on this test in my high school (funny note, I was completely fucked up the day I took the test too... ahhh youth) despite being a straight "D" and "F" student. And what's even funnier is the schools that get good marks on the tests get more funding while the schools that get bad marks on the tests get less funding. Doesn't that make complete fucking sense?

Also what's funny is I quit high school and went straight into college without ever graduating. Not having a high school diploma hasn't hindered me one bit... I mean I went straight into college at 18, got a 2 year, and then moved on to a university, then moved on to a specialized arts school. And any time someone asks me if I graduated high school, I lie and say "Yup." So basically I spent 12 years in a federally mandated mindfuck just so I can say one word in a job interview that I could have lied about in the first place with absolutely no determent. So what the fuck was the point of wasting my time in public education if it's had absolutely no point in my adult life? Although I do regret not getting a diploma because I can't imagine there being any more satisfying rolling papers. The koran, the torah and the bible have certainly lived up to their reputations in that arena. Public education is a fucking joke. I mean people wonder why there's so many problems in this country and why America is completely fucked... well, look at the source.

And again look at our society. Education is completely fucked. Our society is completely fucked. Any notion of parenting is completely fucked. Our culture breeds these retards to reject knowledge and education and think that bettering oneself is "selling out" or some fucking thing. And our culture through our insane consumerism breeds these retards to think they're going to be millionaire rappers (if you ever meet a white kid who thinks he can rap, slap that motherfucker in the face because a severe shock may be the only thing to shake him out of his delusion) by the time they're 21 and to think they're all special without having to work for anything. That's why America is getting it's ass handed to it in the sciences these days and why we're descending into an intellectual dark ages. You can also thank the fuckheads on the religious right for doing everything they could to stab intellectualism in the heart in this country and pissing all over education in this country.

[M. Knight]

....and just served to completely shoot my faith in the educational system in the head.

There really isn't much of an educational system anymore.  Or, more accurately, there is very little education being performed by the system.

I know this doesn't make me some sort of an original thinker, but I see it as an indoctrination system before anything else.

I can take dropping multi-million dollar "smart" weapons on civilians, I can take rampant corruption of our "leaders" right in my face, but the one topic that will send me into a fury is the education system. What we have now is a system that will turn out 90% idiots incapable of meeting the challenges of the 21st century and who will only be able to consume. The other 10% will be the ones who's parents were wealthy enough to keep them out of the low security prisons we can public schools. I'm lucky that I got out right as all this new bullshit with education started. Right now in my state kids are only prepared to pass a test called the WASL, not anything else. And to show you just how fucking poor of a job these people do with something that simple, only something like 15% of kids can pass it. I was one of only three kids out of my entire high school who passed all four categories on this test in my high school (funny note, I was completely fucked up the day I took the test too... ahhh youth) despite being a straight "D" and "F" student. And what's even funnier is the schools that get good marks on the tests get more funding while the schools that get bad marks on the test get less funding. Doesn't that make complete fucking sense?

Also what's funny is I quit high school and went straight into college without ever graduating. Not having a high school diploma hasn't hindered me one bit... I mean I went straight into college at 18, got a 2 year, and then moved on to a university, then moved on to a specialized arts school. So what the fuck was the point of wasting my time in public education if it's had absolutely no point in my adult life? Public education is a fucking joke. I mean people wonder why there's so many problems in this country and why America is completely fucked... well, look at the source.

 
The irony is that the graduates of this flawed system are now also the public policy decision makers.  Hence, we generally have ill conceived and failed solutions to the problems.
 

[EvB]

holy shit, evelyn.  i don't know what's happened to you.  it's like i'm doing the show with rush limbaugh or something!!    jeeee-heeee-sus.


i'm happy you've seen the light, though.

[EvB]

Also what's funny is I quit high school and went straight into college   without ever graduating.

As did I, as did my son and his GF. 

However, you're mistaken if you think there is no education system.  There is.  It's a huge utterly dysfunctional bureaucracy that hobbles good teachers and bases measurements of success on barley  relevant data, and makes life miserable for teachers and students alike.   So, your criticisms are right on.  But if we pretend there is no system when the system 9such as it is) is the problem - well - that's ignoring the elephant in the room. 

Like most government initiatives,  this system is based on rules so convoluted, and so frequently changing due to political issues and matters of belief (and if you don't think that education theory is closer to religion than than practical craft (I won't even pretend it's anything like science) then I suggest you would be helped by some knowledge of the history of public education and a bit of theology for comparison's sake.

Sorry to sound snippy- but I happen to be in a MEd program, a GOOD one as these things are measured, and it is one of the most disheartening experiences of my life.

[Phantastic SanShiSan]

On our school's X-Country team this year, out of about 23 kids, I think 6 were home schooled.  I remembered when meeting a person that was home schooled was a little less rare than than actually seeing a UFO.  Maybe these kids parents have the right idea.

[MV]

On our school's X-Country team this year, out of about 23 kids, I think 6 were home schooled.  I remembered when meeting a person that was home schooled was a little less rare than than actually seeing a UFO.  Maybe these kids parents have the right idea.

every statistic shows that they do have the right idea.

[M. Knight]

Also what's funny is I quit high school and went straight into college   without ever graduating.

As did I, as did my son and his GF. 

However, you're mistaken if you think there is no education system.  There is.  It's a huge utterly dysfunctional bureaucracy that hobbles good teachers and bases measurements of success on barley  relevant data, and makes life miserable for teachers and students alike.   So, your criticisms are right on.  But if we pretend there is no system when the system 9such as it is) is the problem - well - that's ignoring the elephant in the room. 

Like most government initiatives,  this system is based on rules so convoluted, and so frequently changing due to political issues and matters of belief (and if you don't think that education theory is closer to religion than than practical craft (I won't even pretend it's anything like science) then I suggest you would be helped by some knowledge of the history of public education and a bit of theology for comparison's sake.

Sorry to sound snippy- but I happen to be in a MEd program, a GOOD one as these things are measured, and it is one of the most disheartening experiences of my life.
 

 

 
 
We've kinda swerved off the road in this thread, but I can't wait to put our medical system into the same hands as our educational system.

[onan]

Yeah, I got the epinephrine, the normal saline with a 5% glucose, and the defibrillator to bring this thread back to life.

Fuck there are a lot of wordy people that have posted in it. No I didn't read every word.

But here is what I got out of it. history, legal shit, recrimination, education sucks, hispanics are to blame.

The only point made that is "true" race is a misnomer. There are white skinned blue eyed Asians, We are all much more the same than we are different.

I by almost all measure am an atheist. I also believe that as humans we are not better off until all of us are better off. And yes that means that if we are living better than other people then we are culpable. If you disagree you are part of the problem. And I love my country but I love other countries too.

If anyone has spent any time in Colombia, Bolivia, oh hell pick one, and cannot see why one would risk death to get here it is beyond me.

Yeah Phoenix no doubt is 2nd in kidnapping and guess what the guy that sold everything he has to get here isn't the grand plotter behind that.

The reason people are getting kidnapped in Phoenix certainly is due to proximity and also to fucking criminals from hispanic descent but it is not the guy crossing the border to escape that kind of crime.

I know this isn't going to set well with some here, but until everyone has the opportunity to lead a safe and healthy life, we that do will suffer this problem.
 

[M. Knight]

America is not America by mistake.  We all built this place to be what it is.   Therefore a rapid imbalance of any kind can and will change the nature of the economy and the country.


It is amusing to see liberals and arch-conservatives on the same side of an issue while both turn a dead eye to the horrific social problems that ILLEGAL immigration generates. 


Liberals don't want to face the fact that unbridled illegal immigration is unsustainable and leads to serious social and economic problems. 


Conservatives give a greedy nod to the agricultural industry and their insatiable need for undocumented slave labor. 


In the grand scheme of things, the few countries in the world that have attained a high standard of living are like oases in relation to the vast expanse that is teaming with systemic poverty and corruption. 


Everyone cannot live here.  It is that simple. 


Isn't it more humane to demand that other cultures and political systems change in other countries so they can also advance, providing more than subsistence living for their occupants.... come on liberals... I know you can see past the surface of issues. It only hurts for a little while.

[anagrammy]

(liberal voice from far away)

Is he talking about the Arab Spring?

Noooo, I think he means the United States overthrowing their unfavorite Latin American dictator for their preferred Latin American dictator, you know, trying to help other countries be more like us.

Oh.  Well, why would they want to be like us when we have the most people in jail, the highest unemployment rate, the highest infant mortality rate, and are being choked by regulations and laws that violate our privacy?

We have the lowest beheading rate.

Oh.

Anagrammy

[onan]

I agree america is not a mistake. I also agree we can't house everyone. Again I agree illegal immigration is a significant strain on our infrastructure. I just do not merge that problem the drug problem or kidnapping.

Absolutely, helping form gov'ts that create healthy economies is a better answer. Sometimes that may mean not putting U.S. interests first.

Sent from my DROIDX

[M. Knight]

I agree america is not a mistake. I also agree we can't house everyone. Again I agree illegal immigration is a significant strain on our infrastructure. I just do not merge that problem the drug problem or kidnapping.

Absolutely, helping form gov'ts that create healthy economies is a better answer. Sometimes that may mean not putting U.S. interests first.

Sent from my DROIDX

(A)  A substantiation of your postulation:


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128058773




(B)  Contributing information about the social costs issue:


http://www.cis.org/Costs  (I am not familiar with the scholarly integrity of this source, so please take that into consideration)




As a final note...  I have traveled to countries that are heavy contributors to illegal immigration to the USA.  The upper class in these countries actually promote immigration to the United States by sponsoring TV programs about the topic and free assistance. 


It is in their greedy self-interest to get rid of a social injustice problem by getting rid of the people.  No need to change your culture or socio-political system when you send your poor to another country's social welfare system and exploitative under-the-table work opportunities.

[M. Knight]

I'll take the opinions of the professor in this article for its face value, but it is disappointing when a colleague (as a social scientist) does not use the scientific method to analyze an issue.  I'll leave his motive, or lack of one, for another discussion.


The key missing question is: "Although there may not be demonstrable evidence of an increase of crime in states such as Arizona since 2000, would the crime rate have been lower if the contribution to crime by illegals had been removed?"


I think NPR sought someone to interview who would have intellectual integrity, but also who would be dismissive of a deeper analysis of the issue.


I've read articles from the other spectrum and they are equally intellectually weak and use sophomoric statistical reasoning.

[l3urton]

i got one ISSUE on this topic drives me nuts.  IMMIGRATION and ILLEGAL immigration. are two different thing. PLEASE STOP this CONFUSING of the two. when you hear someone say ILLEGALS dont BELONG here... THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT ILLEGAL ALIENS  people who and broken the rules to get in. in effect cutting in front of you at the store. DO YOU LET  PEOPLE cut in front of at store ? no and when it happens you  get peeved.  do you get peeved at guy who might be same color behind him ? no. he DIDNT  cut infront of you. SEE THE POINT HERE .....  its not RACIST  to say i dont want ILLEGALS here.  and stop calling ILLEGALS  IMMIGRANTS. its a insult to people who  worked hard to get here and did it right. which means putting up with DMV type crap at a office for years. LIKE WE DO. welcome to America.   SO IN CLOSING  IMMIGRANTS GOOD..... ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS BAD.... please stop acting like ILLEGALS are IMMIGRANTS, when in fact they are ILLEGALS. and on coast to coast...   WE ALL know ALIENS are real i wonder if we might end up doing  the jobs the MARTIANS dont wanna do

[McPhallus]

i got one ISSUE on this topic drives me nuts.  IMMIGRATION and ILLEGAL immigration. are two different thing. PLEASE STOP this CONFUSING of the two. when you hear someone say ILLEGALS dont BELONG here... THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT ILLEGAL ALIENS  people who and broken the rules to get in. in effect cutting in front of you at the store. DO YOU LET  PEOPLE cut in front of at store ? no and when it happens you  get peeved.  do you get peeved at guy who might be same color behind him ? no. he DIDNT  cut infront of you. SEE THE POINT HERE .....  its not RACIST  to say i dont want ILLEGALS here.  and stop calling ILLEGALS  IMMIGRANTS. its a insult to people who  worked hard to get here and did it right. which means putting up with DMV type crap at a office for years. LIKE WE DO. welcome to America.   SO IN CLOSING  IMMIGRANTS GOOD..... ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS BAD.... please stop acting like ILLEGALS are IMMIGRANTS, when in fact they are ILLEGALS. and on coast to coast...   WE ALL know ALIENS are real i wonder if we might end up doing  the jobs the MARTIANS dont wanna do

Amen.  I'm also tired of this nonsense where we are expected to recast the illegals as "undocumented immigrants.". If you're breaking the law you're illegal!

[onan]

http://blogcritics.org/politics/article/why-illegal-immigrants-come-to-america/

...

One — Send corporate America to rehab so they can get over the need for cheap labor. Not just from illegals, but also outsourcing to other countries. How? Simple. Make fines so steep that the cheap labor would never offset them.

Two — Introduce legislation streamlining naturalization for the people who are already in the country. Give a deadline for everyone to register as a guest worker and give them a Social Security Card so they can start paying taxes.

Three — Deny all government services to anyone who is not in the country legally. After a certain date, deportation would not be to the border or country of origin. I cannot resist introducing a little humor. We are nice people. Sun, sand, and a pair of sandals. Let’s send everyone that is here illegally to a nice place like Iran.


Article Author: Logtar
A... Colombian that became an American, lived in Chicago for 10 years, Michigan for 3, and now lives in Overpriced Park, Kansas. Computer Programmer that also does translation and interpretation.

[Evil Twin Of Zen]

..... Overpriced Park, Kansas. .....

 

[b_dubb]

the extremely wealthy seem to have a compulsive disorder.  why would you NEED that much money? i mean at what point do you hit a level where there's nothing that you can't purchase/influence?  it seems like a kind of hoarding disorder.  but then it's not like the Koch brothers have billions of dollars lying around.  i wonder if they've even printed that much currency.  wait ... how big is our trade deficit?  then they've definitely printed that much currency

[BobGrau]

the extremely wealthy seem to have a compulsive disorder.  why would you NEED that much money? i mean at what point do you hit a level where there's nothing that you can't purchase/influence?  it seems like a kind of hoarding disorder.  but then it's not like the Koch brothers have billions of dollars lying around.  i wonder if they've even printed that much currency.  wait ... how big is our trade deficit?  then they've definitely printed that much currency

10 PRINT "dollar"
20 GOTO 10

[BobGrau]

10 PRINT "dollar"
20 GOTO 10

BASIC economics 

[Ruteger]

If our government and states can selectively enforce the laws, why can't I? Seems I will forget to pay my CA income taxes this year - after all, I don't think it's fair and it is too cumbersome.

[size=78%]Maybe that Red Light is taking too long to change and I need to be on my way. Hussein is [/size][size=78%]breeding[/size][size=78%] lawlessness.[/size]

P.S. My Father came here LEGALLY at 19-years old from Germany. He did not speak english. He learned on his own without government assistance. He assimilated and is now retired. He hates illegals.

[Blinko]

There really isn't much of an educational system anymore.  Or, more accurately, there is very little education being performed by the system.

 I know this doesn't make me some sort of an original thinker, but I see it as an indoctrination system before anything else.

 
In principle, I agree.  The vast majority of our educators have never been trained to think critically, therefore students also are not taught this.  The prevailing education methodology is simply to memorize A, B, or C, but not to critically analyze the topic to discern one's own logic-based decision, understanding, and inter-relationships.  In today's American educational process, only philosophy students will have any exposure to formal critical thinking methodologies.

 this is false.

General Education at the college level includes critical writing classes.

These classes cover the basics of logic in arguments , how to identify fallacies and why you shouldnt use them.

I took both logic as part of a philosophy, humanities requirement and critical writing as part of the english requirement for general education.

one edit here, I am not defending the american educational system at any level and I essentially agree with you about remembering answers as the standard procedure rather than encouraging independent thought.

But in my experience , anyone engaging in learning beyond high school will get some exposure to logic and or critical thinking.

[ziznak]

I forget the name of the movement but I have no problem whatsoever with educated immigrants... if yer ass is educated and you can get a job in 'Merica' more power to ya.... if yer some backwoods piece of shit just trying ta get down with welfare... well... i'd like you to meet my 12g

[onan]

this is false.

General Education at the college level includes critical writing classes.

These classes cover the basics of logic in arguments , how to identify fallacies and why you shouldnt use them.

I took both logic as part of a philosophy, humanities requirement and critical writing as part of the english requirement for general education.

one edit here, I am not defending the american educational system at any level and I essentially agree with you about remembering answers as the standard procedure rather than encouraging independent thought.

But in my experience , anyone engaging in learning beyond high school will get some exposure to logic and or critical thinking.

Considering that:

Total number of high school dropouts annually   3,030,000
Number of high school students who drop out each day   8,300
Percent of all drop outs that happen in the ninth-grade   36 %
Percent of students who repeat the ninth-grade that go on to graduate   15 %
Percent of students in the largest 50 U.S. cities that graduate High School   59 %
Percent of US crimes that committed by a high school dropout   75 %
Amount of money a high school graduate will earn more than a drop out   $260,000
Percent of black drop outs that have spent time in prison   60 %
Percentage of Hispanic dropouts that were due to a pregnancy   41 %
Percent of US jobs a high school dropout is not eligible for   90 %

http://www.statisticbrain.com/high-school-dropout-statistics/

Quite a few never get to that critical thinking class.

[ziznak]

they're not all pieces of shit...
dont forget you were educated in somewhat of the same type of system I would imagine.... there are some smart kids growing up don't cut em short.... we were all young in one space and time... memeber

[Blinko]

          And it this not immigration as I mentioned at the beginning of this rant; it is not people who come here, at any cost, because they want to be AMERICANS, live freer lives and raise their families as proud citizens.  People who work hard, make their children go to school and learn, who eagerly embrace their new country and its language beliefs and customs. 
 
**M**

The people who come here have no obligation to be AMERICANS in the all caps manner that you understand AMERICAN to be.

The people who immigrate here have no responsibility to learn the language you speak or practice what you believe are american customs and beliefs.

What are american customs and beliefs? who decides what those are ? you?

Does the United States have a formally recognized language by law? where is that stated? I really dont know here , but if it does exist someone let me know.

The idea that the term american refers to any one specific culture or way of life is absurd , it doesnt exist.

I read through the history portion of your post and I can say that you know way more about it that I can even pretend to know.But why does the history matter? By your post it seems to be because of entitlement. I dont think mexican immigrants believe they are entitled to be here because of some fallacious understanding of history. I think they are just looking for a better life.

Why does it bother you that they are here?

Is it because you believe their very presence is a violation of law? If you visited Canada on vacation would you be a law breaker? If you decided to stay and live as a Canadian , would you be a law breaker?

Why does their wanting to live here make them illegal?


if you are upset that they dont pay taxes , should you not focus your anger at their employers?

if you dont like the fact that they send their money to Mexico , should you not have greater anger at american corporations that send thousands of jobs and money to other countries?

Bottom line here though is this. It's their money they can spend it however they like. It's crazy to look at the money mexicans send out of the country and consider it a real problem when huge corporations like GE don't pay any tax at all and major corporations hide billions in foreign banks to avoid paying back into the american taxation system.

Supposing this happened. Suppose we could make all these Immigrants legal citizens overnight. They would all have SSN's , pay into the tax system and be citizens.

Would there still be a problem?

Of course there would . You dont like them and you dont want them here. That is the problem . Plain and simple.

It's not about breaking the law , there are bigger law breakers that you are not ranting about.
It's not about freeloading and not paying taxes , their are bigger offenders here that you are not ranting about .

You just dont like them and you dont want them here.

If this assessment is wrong , then help them, help them live here legally.Help them become americans.

Otherwise , spare yourself the trouble of constructing these elaborate arguments and just state the problem for what it really is.

[ziznak]

if you come here ... learn the lingo... act presentable.... seriously.... dont be a fucking piece of shit... we are sick of yer type... (the assholes) like really if you come to this country you better come with some sort of educated background if not go fuck yourself)

holy poop im soo sorry i been like mr angry lately.... taking chilll pills now....my bad

[Paper*Boy]

The people who come here have no obligation to be AMERICANS in the all caps manner that you understand AMERICAN to be.

The people who immigrate here have no responsibility to learn the language you speak or practice what you believe are american customs and beliefs.

What are american customs and beliefs? who decides what those are ? you?

Does the United States have a formally recognized language by law? where is that stated? I really dont know here , but if it does exist someone let me know.

The idea that the term american refers to any one specific culture or way of life is absurd , it doesnt exist...

 
What are you talking about?  This is OUR country.  WE own it   WE decide.  As citizens WE decide who else comes here and who doesn't - when, why, for how long, who stays and who goes.  And we have some rules to follow - mostly the ones we have for ourselves.
 
We have the right to determine what language business, governent, education and everything else is conducted in.  We have the right to make laws against customs foreigners bring in here that we don't like - or, for instance, do you want your neighbors slaghtering lambs in their kitchens?.
 
If we want immigrants with certain characteristics, or want to exclude certain immigrants, whatever those may be - age, education level, anything really - that is our right as citizens.   We have been a very welcoming and generous country, maybe a little too welcoming and generous sometimes. 
 
Personally, I've liked just about every immigrant I've met - more than I like other Americans a lot of the time.  But we don't owe anyone anything, certainly not entry to the country or resident or citizen status.