Topic: OBAMA'S WAFFLE SHOPPE OPEN.

[Centurion73]

You are using one example for your argument and not looking at the totality of situation.

You have sold yourself a dream if you think this is but one example I remember hundreds of signed statements from those captured being on the news when the news was the 4th estate and did what they should do. Newspapers printed them and the Govt even tried to prosecute some who had signed statements under torture.

Totality of the situation, torture does not work, not one study has proven it to be effective at gathering truthful information.

[workingindreamland]

You have sold yourself a dream if you think this is but one example I remember hundreds of signed statements from those captured being on the news when the news was the 4th estate and did what they should do. Newspapers printed them and the Govt even tried to prosecute some who had signed statements under torture.

Totality of the situation, torture does not work, not one study has proven it to be effective at gathering truthful information.

So you honestly believe that torture hasn't worked even once?

[Frys Girl]

So you honestly believe that torture hasn't worked even once?

Is that what this debate is about? Wow. Lowest common denominator here we come!

[Centurion73]

So you honestly believe that torture hasn't worked even once?

Not from any published study, not from what I have been exposed to, and not by any psychologist such a Zimbardo (Stanford prison experiment.) All torture does not have to be physical in nature.

Do you honestly believe that not one innocent person has been tortured even once?

[Centurion73]

So you honestly believe that torture hasn't worked even once?

Isikoff: With terrorist guilty plea, court ?scores? where illegal detention failed

By David Edwards and Muriel Kane

Published: May 1, 2009

"Accused al Qaeda ?sleeper? operative Ali al-Marri pleaded guilty on Thursday to one count of conspiracy to provide material support to al Qaeda." in criminal court NOT military tribunals.

"Newsweek correspondent Michael Isikoff was jubilant at the outcome, telling MSNBC?s Rachel Maddow, ?Score one for the criminal justice system.?

"the Obama administration?s decision to try al-Marri in criminal court has accomplished what the Bush administration was unable to achieve with over seven years of illegal detention and ?enhanced? interrogation techniques.

"the Bush administration designated him an enemy combatant, stripped him of al. his Constitutional rights ? and threw him in a military brig, denied him access to a lawyer, subjected him to ?enhanced? interrogation techniques ? and [he] wasn?t charged with any crime.?

"?As a result of this guilty plea,? Isikoff concluded, ?Ali al-Marri can be called into federal court at a trial of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and asked to simply recite the facts that he pled guilty to today. ? The Justice Department is going to have direct evidence against Khalid Sheikh Mohammed as an al Qaeda conspirator trying to attack the United States without having to use any of the tainted evidence it got through waterboarding and the other enhanced interrogation techniques.?
 
Enhanced = Newspeak ref = torture. If it worked why would it take 7 (seven years) why would you have to subject one person to a reported 186 "enhancements" in a one month period if it worked, if it was reliable, if it were legal then it all be different.

Argument for "enhancement" we had information that pink elephants were going to stampede across the Golden Gate Bridge and trample little old ladies, since that did not happen our use of "enhancement" worked, case closed (along with mind.)

[Centurion73]

Any Obama supporters want to please ask him to stop doing this and maybe protect the  Constitution the he supposedly taught as such a learned man one of the brightest purported but never substantiated.

 Precrime and Punishment: The FBI's New Era of Terror
Written by Tom Burghardt   Pacific Free Press

" the Bureau's Department of Precrime!

A chilling new report by the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) reveals the breadth and scope of the FBI's Investigative Data Warehouse (IDW), the Bureau's massive data-mining project.

With more than a billion records "many of which contain information on American citizens,"

"As they walked along the busy, yellow-lit tiers of offices, Anderton said: "You're acquainted with the theory of precrime, of course. I presume we can take that for granted."
- Philip K. Dick, The Minority Report     
 

EFF notes that "the Library on Congress by way of comparison, has about 138 million (138,313,427) items in its collection."


Kurt Opsahl, EFF's Senior Staff Attorney and the author of the new report said: "The IDW includes more than four times as many documents as the Library of Congress, and the FBI has asked for millions of dollars to data-mine this warehouse, using unproven science in an attempt to predict future crimes from past behavior. We need to know all of what's in the IDW, and how our privacy will be protected."

"the Department of Justice told the court that "no additional material will be disclosed," despite Obama administration assertions that it has "new policies on open government."

I think there is still time to find out if Obama is a true leader, or merely a political "rock-star."

Yeah all the time and information they want.

[EvB]

Precrime and Punishment

Wasn't that a movie with Tom Cruise?

[Centurion73]

Wasn't that a movie with Tom Cruise?

Philip K. Dick, The Minority Report  

[Centurion73]

Pinter to Obama:
Harold Pinter, the British playwright, said  that his longstanding political activism may have played a role in the decision to award him the 2005 Nobel Prize for Literature.

"... Obama:Obama was the perfect choice for president. Not because of his experience. He had none. He was a two year senator with a resume? small enough to fit on the back of a matchbox. Still Obama had what Brzezinski and Co. were looking for, symbolism: the kind of symbolism that connected him to people around the world and made them feel like one of their own had finally clawed their way to the top. Even better, Obama was a charismatic populist who could fill stadiums with adoring fans and put a benign face on America?s interventions in Afghanistan and Iraq. What more could Brzezinski hope for? After eight years of dragging ?Brand America? through the mud, the country would finally get the emergency facelift it needed and begin to restore its battered image as the world?s indispensable nation.

For leftists, Obama has been a total bust. He?s escalated the war in Afghanistan, increased the cross-border bombings of Pakistan, hemmed and hawed about prosecuting war crimes, refused to actively lobby House members to make it easier for workers to organize (EFCA), and surrounded himself with bank industry reps who?ve committed $12.8 trillion to sinking financial institutions with no assurance that the money would be repaid. Apart from a trifling bill on stem cells, Obama has done absolutely zero to confirm his bone fides as a liberal. The truth is, Obama is neither liberal nor conservative; he?s simply an inspiring orator and a skillful politician who has no strong convictions about anything.

[EvB]

The truth is, Obama is neither liberal nor conservative; he?s simply an inspiring orator and a skillful politician who has no strong convictions about anything.

And this is essentially different than any other president in recent history HOW?

[Centurion73]

And this is essentially different than any other president in recent history HOW?

He was the one, proclaimed the one by some! He said it himself, he would be different than any other president, he did get half of that right but that was just Mendelian inheritance and genetic coding.

Well, according to all who bought his, "change" - "yes we can" and other Goebbelsisms (Goodwin's law disclaimer) a LOT of people bought it hook, line and sinker and are still swilling it down. I think you are the only person on this thread (maybe two or three others like MV,PKA) that have recognized this. What is interesting is that it took so long  and this can be applied to PKA's "Wow, this is exactly what I was talking about in another thread."

'Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!' -- The Wizard of Oz

[PhantasticSanShiSan]

I was so happy he won, but early on in the presidentials, when I was pretty sure he was gonna win I said to my wife "Wouldn't it be the ultimate FU is he was just a different brand image for generally the same shit?"  We know a major difference - he's not the "Oil" guy.  I'm not sure what he is yet though.  "Banking" guy maybe.  Each president is a front man for some super-sector of the economy, and sometimes multiple sectors, like an RPG character.  Bush was a "Psuedo-Soldier" class character in the NEOCON guild (which specializes in world contracting and colonialism quests), with Foreign Oil as his special stat, big Pharm as his secondary specialty, and religion as his third.  What kind of LARPer wil Obama turn out to be?

[Frys Girl]

Harold Pinter's plays are awesome. Plain awesome. If you've never read his stuff, please do! The Birthday Party is great.

Also, he died last year. When did he issue that Obama statement? Never saw it.

[EvB]

"Wouldn't it be the ultimate FU is he was just a different brand image for generally the same shit?"

I think that ends up happening even with the best intended candidates.  I heard an interview with Willie Nelson once - and during it he spoke about Jimmy Carter. (Nelson apparently knows Carter personally) and said that Carter had found, some as he went though his campaign, but mostly after he was elected, how many hobbles there are on a president. They're all puppets to one degree or another, and, if I understand correctly, have been at least since the end of WWII - if not before.

Now, just to be PERFECTLY CLEAR here before the tangents start (and they will) I'm not saying "yeah" or "nay" to Carter's presidency.  I admire the man and the work he has done SINCE - beyond that I'm not saying anything here about him as a leader. He was just the example Nelson used.

[PhantasticSanShiSan]

No, No, NO.  I mean a willing puppet - part of the action, like George Bush.  The fact that he put up Geitner(?) is just a slap in the face.  This guy (Obama) seems banking clan/trade federation all the way.  And remember what they did to Naboo. "Our Blockade is perfectly legal."

[Frys Girl]

Life doesn't really change in America from prez to prez (unless you're in the military or "public service" sector). We get angry or we get some small gains for causes we might feel strongly about, but not much else. It's much ado about nothing. I wasn't expecting fireworks either, just no war with Iran. I didn't trust Sarah Palin or John McCain's health.

[EvB]

No, No, NO.  I mean a willing puppet - part of the action, like George Bush.

Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh . . ..

Wish I could say you're WRONG.

[Centurion73]

No, No, NO.  I mean a willing puppet - part of the action, like George Bush.  The fact that he put up Geitner(?) is just a slap in the face.  This guy (Obama) seems banking clan/trade federation all the way.  And remember what they did to Naboo. "Our Blockade is perfectly legal."

You hit it he is all about destroying the American Dollar and has given the government from oil to the bankers now, great post bad for us.

[Centurion73]

Harold Pinter's plays are awesome. Plain awesome. If you've never read his stuff, please do! The Birthday Party is great.

Also, he died last year. When did he issue that Obama statement? Never saw it.

Not sure was between Nov 4, 2008 & Dec 2008 when he died trying to find it for you and he saw that much by then, what an intellect.

Obama needs to do what he said he would do and be his own "MAN" that is how he can save his own reputation and help start America back on track. Saying things like it has not been the same since WWII is meaningless when you ran and preyed on people that you would be the "change." If he is so learned and so smart as he was/is purported to be are we supposed to believe that he did not know things have changed for presidents since wwII? Kennedy was getting rid of the CIA giving power back at least he tried and payed a great price for it but he tried. Not that I wish anything bad to happen to Obama but he acted so Kennedy like while running when it suited him now its not that much of an issue I guess. He has the power to "change" things but it is status quo all over again. He needs to get out of the belt way away from his handlers and use the mind he has and then maybe we have a chance.

[PhantasticSanShiSan]

Not sure was between Nov 4, 2008 & Dec 2008 when he died trying to find it for you and he saw that much by then, what an intellect.

Obama needs to do what he said he would do and be his own "MAN" that is how he can save his own reputation and help start America back on track. Saying things like it has not been the same since WWII is meaningless when you ran and preyed on people that you would be the "change." If he is so learned and so smart as he was/is purported to be are we supposed to believe that he did not know things have changed for presidents since wwII? Kennedy was getting rid of the CIA giving power back at least he tried and payed a great price for it but he tried. Not that I wish anything bad to happen to Obama but he acted so Kennedy like while running when it suited him now its not that much of an issue I guess. He has the power to "change" things but it is status quo all over again. He needs to get out of the belt way away from his handlers and use the mind he has and then maybe we have a chance.

HUZZAH!!!!

[PhantasticSanShiSan]

[EvB]

Oh I'm IMPRESSED - on technical grounds more tha political -- did you do this one yourself?

[Pirate King Atomsk]

Change is all that will be left in your pocket

Did you know he spent more in his first month in office than all presidents have spent combined? And on the federal government level, we're going to have a debt on our generation and for many more that will ultimately cripple us as a world power.

Honestly, I think Obama wants to destroy us as a world power. Socialism/globalism will be increasingly easier to push in a deteriorating capitalistic, sovereign environment.

N.A.U., perhaps?

[EvB]

Did you know he spent more in his first month in office than all presidents have spent combined?

Okay -- that's a pretty fucking outrageous statement.  And - I'd react the same way no matter WHO was prez.  I wanna see some figures - and I want them adjusted for inflation.

[Frys Girl]

Did you know he spent more in his first month in office than all presidents have spent combined? And on the federal government level, we're going to have a debt on our generation and for many more that will ultimately cripple us as a world power.

Honestly, I think Obama wants to destroy us as a world power. Socialism/globalism will be increasingly easier to push in a deteriorating capitalistic, sovereign environment.

N.A.U., perhaps?

Are you talking about the stimulus? Pirate channelling Glen Beck again. Calm down! Please! Just wait a year. If we can survive Bush/Cheney (the real satanic dildo duo), we can survive ANYTHING.

Anyway P man, 2012 is coming. If Obama does fuck it all up to hell, although one man cannot do this in the USA because there are balance of powers you know, remember this please when you go off about destruction and tyranny, he can go ton George Noory's show and say it's in the Mayan calendar.

[Pirate King Atomsk]

Okay -- that's a pretty fucking outrageous statement.  And - I'd react the same way no matter WHO was prez.  I wanna see some figures - and I want them adjusted for inflation.

Obama's proposed budget for the next ten years is 3.6 trillion. CBO projects that this will push the deficit to 9.7 trillion dollars over the next 10 years. If you do the math or the research, you will find that Obama has already spent more than all the Presidents from Washington to Bush in less than three months.

[Frys Girl]

Obama's proposed budget for the next ten years is 3.6 trillion. CBO projects that this will push the deficit to 9.7 trillion dollars over the next 10 years. If you do the math or the research, you will find that Obama has already spent more than all the Presidents from Washington to Bush in less than three months.

He's also facing an unprecedented situation, to put it nicely. It's not like he wants this.

[Pirate King Atomsk]

He's also facing an unprecedented situation, to put it nicely. It's not like he wants this.

Oh he most definitely wants it. As Rom Emanuel said - It's a perfect opportunity to administer the wish list and govt changes that the left has been wanting for the last 10 years.

Trust me, with the houses in democrat control, the economic strife of the county only serves to help Obama get what he, Pelosi, and Reid want much more easily.

[Frys Girl]

Oh he most definitely wants it. As Rom Emanuel said - It's a perfect opportunity to administer the wish list and govt changes that the left has been wanting for the last 10 years.

Trust me, with the houses in democrat control, the economic strife of the county only serves to help Obama get what he, Pelosi, and Reid want much more easily.

Where is Cent, anyway? Has anyone been in touch with him? I hope he's ok and will return here.

Well they earned it. I'm sorry but I have no sympathy for the REpublicans. They are a bunch of boobs. Who was the last chair of the RNC? Why isn't he in jail or being publically shamed? I'm a registered R and it's not worth it to change really, but if i was really an R, i'd demand they get their acts together instead of worrying about birth certificates and other bullshit. I'd demand Ron Paul get a higher post and more vocal one for that matter.

It's the R's fault. They have a powerful network (fox) that sends out propaganda and they can't manage to win. Thanks for reminding me why I left the R party.

[EvB]

Where is Cent, anyway? Has anyone been in touch with him? I hope he's ok and will return here.

Only briefly.  I can say with about 90% sureness that his absence has little or nothing to do with us.  He may appreciate a PM.